During the finishing of the travelling bookcases, she watched me apply some shellac.
I have a hard time understanding vegans, but that might just be because I am not smart enough.
Laura knows more about that way of life than I do, so we ended up talking about that while I proceeded with the shellac.
Apparently vegans shouldn't eat or use anything that is made by an animal unless it is not supposed to be used by the animal itself.
I only thought that they weren't supposed to eat stuff, but Laura said that it was harder than that.
So it made me wonder if vegans can use shellac as a finish at all?
If the beetle produce the shellac for a purpose, it means that they can't use that finish.
If the shellac in the other hand is a waste product that the beetle doesn't use for anything, it should be OK.
I guess bees wax as a finish is also ruled out if you are a vegan.
Technically it doesn't mean a lot to me, since I am not a vegan, but I found the subject a bit interesting.
A bit akin to imposing a 100% hand tool use on yourself, or Only to use domestic woods etc.
So does anyone know a vegan woodworker and perhaps through this know if they can use shellac and bees wax?
I suppose it also means no ivory inlay.
ReplyDeleteI guess so.
DeleteOrdinary bone might be frowned upon too.
Tortoise shell is probably also not used by vegans.
Cheers
Jonas
"Vegan" here. Great to see this topic come up, I've yet to see it discussed in my little woodworking world.
ReplyDeleteNote the word has several connotations to different people, and I feel is best understood more as a "spectrum" than a strict definition. Diet wise, I do not eat meat or consume dairy products, however I do consume honey and occassionally other insect-derivitives (i.e. shellac coating), so a strict "Vegan" I am not. For me, it comes down to questions of intent and necessity. Let me explain:
I believe that most if not all humans do not actually NEED to consume animal products to live. This is an endless source of debate, so be aware that my opinion is in no way a proven fact. I can only speak to the fact that I have survived healthily and happily for 5+ years on plant-based and ~98% "vegan" diet with no extraordinary supplements.
Where I break down is when the "natural"/"animal" solution is generally better than the "alternative"/"plant-based" solution and when the general net outcome is not harmful to myself or the planet comparitively.
Great example: shellac vs. poly-based/plastic/petro-derived or excessively toxic finishes (VOCs etc.)
Initially I avoided shellac due to my tendencies, however the more I looked into the true differences and production processes for standard/non-traditional finishes, there is little to be gained morally or otherwise by using a "modern" finish in lieu of something with a proven track-record of hundreds of years.
Similarly, I find beeswax and honey (when procured respectfully and sustainably) to actually be a net benefit to the bee population, particularly if you know a small local apiary where you can obtain your goods -- I do.
Leather is another example. Leather goods I own have outlasted any "alternative" by many times over. The animal was already slaughtered primarily for meat in most cases or if it was not suitable for meat would likely have been killed anyway, thus by using the carcass for leather I see a vague form of redemption simply in the timeframe of usefulness of the good.
Now, concluding with meat and dairy. I find both of these largely unnecessary unless you are truly living a nomadic or wilderness lifestyle with little access to wild foods or agricultural resources. Beyond that, both have been proven to cause ongoing and significant damage both to the earth, the populations of the animals themselves (mass sicknesses / genetic mutations etc.), and also human health.
There is much more to be said here, and all of this is highly debatable so I encourage you to do your own dilligence and search your own hearts. Normally I do not bring up the topic or discuss it with the public, but I thought I could lend an interesting perspective here.
Thanks
Hi b wood.
DeleteThanks a lot for the comment and the explanation.
In Denmark where I live, I have the feeling that there are not very many vegans.
There are a lot more vegetarians, but those that I know are pesca vegetarians (They eat sea food).
I like the idea about using natural products provided that they are better than the synthetic ones. Like you say, leather can really last a long time.
I am not sure if it is a valid argument, but I think that living in a cold area like Scandinavia, I need a lot more fat and protein, that would be difficult for me to get from local sources if I had to be a vegetarian or a vegan.
In my opinion some of the idea is lost if I have to import e.g. coconut oil to survive, when I can use milk from a local cow.
But to return to the woodworking part again. One of the things that dawned upon me when I had the discussion with my daughter was that there are a lot of animal based products that I regularly use in woodworking:
Hide glue, shellac, bees wax, horse hair (on my broom), bone and probably many more that I don't think of.
Again than you for commenting.
Brgds
Jonas
Hi Jonas,
ReplyDeleteReally appreciate your response -- this is a fun conversation for me to entertain.
I totally agree with you that colder areas and particularly Scandinavia have some specific challenges with regard to plant-based diet. Again, this is where the ideas of intent and necessity come into play.
I do not feel that somebody who eats meat or consumes dairy to truly survive is doing anything wrong -- on the contrary this is the definition of "natural".
I struggle with the claims re: things like coconut oil etc. since I do use these products from time to time. Obviously there are issues to be discussed here, and if you are somebody that is living a truly local-goods-only lifestyle then you are ahead of me here for sure. But a lot of times I hear things like this come up more as an "excuse" to continue eating the standard meat and dairy diet.
To be sure, life is more difficult as a vegan/strict vegetarian. Some everyday and communal activities become strained, and it can be hard to maintain the lifestyle just from the social/family aspects alone.
Many times, when something is difficult, we choose the easy way. This is human nature. Like I said in the original comment, you have to search yourself. Or as somebody else would say:
"If you have to ask the question, you already know the answer"
The reasons I have to eat meat and dairy are few in my current situation. The reasons to avoid them are many -- some selfish, some altruistic.
The reasons to use animal products in my woodworking are at relative parity with the results of using alternatives, so I feel comfortable here that I am not being excessive/wasteful/disrespectful to that which provided the resource I am using.
All that being said, I have done some interesting experiments in plant-based cellulose leather that I think could be greatly expanded by somebody in the future with more time and resources. Long term we may need to look at solutions like this out of necessity. Right now, there is plenty of leather to go around as a borderline by-product (tanning industry aside).
Probably got more than you bargained for out of me here. :-)
Thanks
Hi b wood
DeleteI like it a lot when there is some discussion on a blog post.
And especially when it is on a subject that is truly not discussed much.
pin/tails first would be difficult discussion to find new information in :-)
I am not a 100% local grown guy, but I actually try to support local products. A thing that I was just ranting about earlier today was that it annoys me that 90% of all garlic sold in Denmark comes from China.
Why on earth should it be allowed to transport something like that all around the globe?
Pineapples can't grow in our climate, so that makes more sense, but garlic can grow just fine on our latitudes.
I like the idea that everyone can do something, so if people just once in a while think about either what you eat, use or buy is a step in the right direction.
Have a nice weekend
Brgds
Jonas
Hi there folks!
ReplyDeletePart-time vegetarian (or other name you call it) here!
My step daughter is 'ovo-lacto-vegetarian'(because she eats eggs, cheese, honey and yogurts) But there are lots of names and categories depending where you live...
I also made the same question to her and the answer was: maybe and it depends... LOL
Hand tools always,
Shellac is peaceful,
Beeswax it depends how the bees are kept,
Wood is best to upcycle then to 'kill a tree' but trees are far better then MDF or particle boards,
Animal glue is bad but better then synthetic glues
But when we talk its easy to find lots of holes in some of the ideas and philosophy of life... so we all (6 at home- yes we are almost converted) in case off doubt use this rule what's the less harmful and the best eco-friendly...
Hi António
DeleteThanks for commenting.
I like the eco-friendly approach. I also like to either recycle or reuse stuff.
If you find the "holes" it must mean that you think about how you live your life, and that is a good thing.
I just got to think of that I don't know if the shellac is a waste product for the beetles, or if it is something that they actually use.
Brgds
Jonas
Isn't it beetle poop?
DeleteI don't think it is actual poop, but something that they sweat out. I guess I could google it, but I am too lazy to do so :-)
DeleteAnyway, I don't think it is something that the beetles use themselves.
Cheers
Jonas
I've never considered the vegan lifestyle so it's hard for me to comment. My brother-in-law was a vegan for 2 years. He was always attempting to make his lifestyle as healthy as possible so eventually he became a vegan. After a few years, according to him, he said that he actually felt worse and that on a trip to the doctor he was told that his iron levels were way down even though he took supplements.
ReplyDeleteKeep in mind, your daughter is much younger than him and I'm sure is able to cope far better. From what little I know, some people take to it without a problem, and some, like my brother-in-law, could not do it. So I have to think that it is a very difficult choice to make.
Thanks
Bill
Hi Bill
DeleteMy daughter is not Vegan, but she is semi vegetarian. Semi in such a way that if she is invited home to someone, grandparents or just a weekend at our home, she readily eats anything that is put on the table, meat and egs etc.
She actually really likes pork chops and a Danish dish called "karbonader".
A friend of mine said that a vegetarian in Scandinavia really needed to eat vitamins and still there was a risk that he/she would not get all the nourishment that was needed. I think it is due to our low level of sunlight and not having that many different native fruits and vegetables.
What really puzzled me was the idea that being a vegan was not just about what you eat, but also to not use animal products generally.
In my view it is not much different than some religious beliefs that will tell you what you can't eat etc.
Brgds
Jonas
My brother-in-law was pretty strict as far as diet, but I'm not sure if it carried over into other parts of his life. I never really asked to be honest because he and I aren't all that close. I am 13 years older than him and we have little in common. Not that I think he is a bad person, because he is not, it's just that we are very different.
DeleteBill
Some subjects are better left un-discussed even with family.
DeleteJonas
A simple planed finish may be as vegan as one could be.
ReplyDeleteHi Brian
DeleteThat sounds true.
Actually it can sometimes be hard to improve on the looks of a finely planed surface too.
Brgds
Jonas